[dojo-contributors] what is the raison detre for dojo 2.0.

Dylan Schiemann dylan at dojotoolkit.org
Thu Oct 11 08:29:27 EDT 2012


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We have this for the reference guide... for the book, people really want
something that's polished/edited, and something in print or pdf format.
Lots of thoughts, but there needs to be some model that will compensate
people for those efforts, or else it's not really worth the time.

If I was to do to a book, it would live in source control as markdown,
and then get exported to ebook and print book formats so that people
could buy copies of it.

Regards,
- -Dylan

on 10/11/12 4:03 AM (GMT-07:00) Pierre-Emmanuel Manteau - DoYouSoft said
the following:
> About The book idea,
> 
> Why not create a github repository : Dojo 2.0 : The Living Guide
> 
> the readme would be the index a folder per chapter
> 
> People could do pull requests to add/modify/improve/add examples on 
> pages/chapters It would also make the task maybe lighter to write the
> complete book, make it a community project, it would also help keep
> it up to date to some extend. We could then use some github page
> system to use the documents we write directly from the repo and have
> a dojo2.github.com guide book. People could of course freely print a
> copy by themselves or buy one from Dojo Foundation with some extra
> (t-shirt, or whatever).
> 
> each page could be a number.md file
> 
> well it is just a proposal, but I think it'd be really cool :) Not a
> doc ! a book ! :)
> 
> PEM-
> 
> 
> Le 11/10/2012 12:51, Dylan Schiemann a écrit : Very interesting
> points Ken, and I agree with much of what you are saying.
> 
> For me, 2.0 isn't done until we have 2-3 well documented,
> beautifully architected representative example applications.
> Otherwise, we don't know if our toolkit is useful and practical, and
> efficient to use.
> 
> Regarding books, a good book on Dojo would take 2000 hours in my 
> estimate. I've gone as far as writing an outline, that for the first 
> third of the book or so could mostly leverage existing content and
> clean it up. I'm thinking if there's enough interest in that, I could
> get that first third of it done, go the self-publish route, and use
> the proceeds to fund efforts to write the next 2/3rds... that said,
> writing books that aren't littered with errors, that are simple to
> understand, takes an inordinate amount of time, so that's why no one
> has stepped up.
> 
> Lots more in here, and from PEM's email to respond to, but I'm out
> of time for now...
> 
> Regards, -Dylan
> 
> on 10/11/12 2:18 AM (GMT-07:00) Ken Benjamin said the following:
>>>> I agree, we are not "at war" with any other toolkit, nor should
>>>> we be but that does not mean that we are not competing.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One of the comments mentioned that we might "not have the
>>>> resources" to rework parts of the toolkit. Those resources come
>>>> from having a broad user base and the shortage of those
>>>> resources are the harbinger of future decline into irrelevance
>>>> or narrow adoption by only those organizations with the
>>>> resources to actively support the toolkit. Not knowing the full
>>>> Dojo contributor landscape, I'm speculating here that we are
>>>> already dependent upon a few very committed large supporters, 
>>>> predominantly IBM.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> In some sense this a huge plus and adds needed continuity and
>>>> stability. It also comes at a price. Large organizations tend
>>>> to be interested in large customers. This is particularly in
>>>> the case of IBM whose focus is on large organizations
>>>> exclusively. Here's why this matters:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The web is a dynamic place with incredibly low barriers to
>>>> entry for content and application creation. Anyone can pick up
>>>> a book on HTML and make something out of it. Some of these
>>>> people will advance in their skills, creating more complex
>>>> apps, working for small companies to implement new websites and
>>>> apps, and just a few of those may develop professional
>>>> programming skills and move into the large corporations.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Dojo, as it stands today, attracts that last, limited set of
>>>> people: those who know what is involved in creating a complex
>>>> app, want a comprehensive solution, understand at least a
>>>> little about software lifecycle, are concerned about on-going
>>>> support, and take licensing into consideration.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> If I'm a newbie to the whole Web 2.0 app development world,
>>>> what toolkit would I choose? The answer today is clearly
>>>> jQuery. Why? It looks nice (yes, this really does make a huge
>>>> difference), is easy to get started with, has lots users, and
>>>> lots of documentation.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Where will I turn years later when I have more skills and have
>>>> a new project? Back to my old friend, jQuery, tried and true.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Dojo is, in fact, in competition with jQuery and all the rest.
>>>> We cannot overlook that fact, though we can treat it as
>>>> coop-etition to some degree. Open-source does not comport well
>>>> with cut-throat.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I would like to see Dojo move to position itself as more
>>>> accessible to beginners while providing a solid pathway to
>>>> their growth into more sophisticated apps and methods, all of
>>>> which Dojo currently facilitates.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Right now, our job is hard. We have to convert people from the 
>>>> simplicity and prettiness of jQuery to the relative complexity
>>>> and richness of Dojo. I'd rather we could be the natural first
>>>> step up from HTML. Declarative markup with auto-require is that
>>>> easy step. Add some animation, better theming tools, and simple
>>>> tutorials and we're there.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The tools are there. We can do everything jQuery can do, and
>>>> much more, but we don't make it simple. We assume people
>>>> understand object-oriented Javascript (mostly they don't). We
>>>> make Dojo for the professional programmer, not the budding
>>>> script kiddie that Joe's Diner hired to build their website. I
>>>> don't see why we can't capture both sets.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Appeal to the beginners and enable the experts. Provide an
>>>> on-ramp to Web 2.0 (and Web 3.0, whatever that means) that
>>>> leads directly to the super-highway that is Dojo. Add some
>>>> signs so people don't just happen to take the scenic jQuery
>>>> Parkway because it was the only on-ramp they saw and the
>>>> scenery was nice, even if the destination wasn't where they 
>>>> might have ultimately wanted to go.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One last point here. We must remember what we are building.
>>>> Tools. Tools have no purpose other than to help create
>>>> something useful. It is what we can build with the toolkit that
>>>> matters and we can't forget that in our lust to forge a better
>>>> hammer.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Forget the technology. Focus on answering this question:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> How does Dojo make my life better?
>>>> 
>>>> In other words, what is the benefit to me. Tools are just the
>>>> how. I want to know what you are going to give me. Why Dojo?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> To my mind Dojo offers:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The ability to create both simple and complex applications
>>>> 
>>>> A single source for all (or nearly all) the parts I might need
>>>> 
>>>> A single learning curve (entirely too steep at the moment but
>>>> getting better)
>>>> 
>>>> Simple methods to start (declarative) and all the power I might
>>>> need (programmatic / dojo libs)
>>>> 
>>>> A robust and helpful support community (but we need books)
>>>> 
>>>> A well-integrated API with tools that all work together
>>>> 
>>>> The ability to easily make small, or large changes to any of
>>>> the tools to better meet my needs
>>>> 
>>>> Compatibility with other (AMD) tools if I they better suit my
>>>> needs
>>>> 
>>>> Stability that comes from backing by big names, like IBM
>>>> 
>>>> A builder that shrinks my app from BIG and SLOW loading to tiny
>>>> and fast
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> What is currently missing:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Easy (I mean really easy) getting started with Dojo guides,
>>>> both programmatic using dojo/query, animation, stuff you might
>>>> want on a webpage, not in an app.
>>>> 
>>>> Better examples / easier to read docs for Build
>>>> 
>>>> ThemeRoller, or equivalent and some designer created styles to
>>>> go with it.
>>>> 
>>>> Dojo book(s) - why isn't someone writing (re-writing) one for
>>>> the AMD 1.x line? I suspect it'll be around for years to come
>>>> (no, I'm not volunteering).
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> First impressions matter and Dojo is intimidating for the
>>>> beginner, not particularly beautiful (Mobile is an exception
>>>> and very nice, Claro is highly functional and attractive in a
>>>> 2003 kind of way). Show me what I can build with Dojo. Have a
>>>> showcase (in addition to what we have already) with at least
>>>> screenshots of what I can make using Dojo. Inspire me with
>>>> ideas.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Oh, and what about a "Developed with Dojo" icon / link /
>>>> tagline people can use, if they want.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Dojo should continue to be what Dojo has always been. It's
>>>> raison d'être remains to help you build high quality, useful
>>>> web applications in the most efficient manner possible.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One toolkit to rule them all has a lot of appeal, so long as it
>>>> does it well, and continues to be open-minded and accepting of
>>>> new ideas. Dojo has the potential to be all that.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Ken B
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message----- From:
>>>> dojo-contributors-bounces at mail.dojotoolkit.org 
>>>> <mailto:dojo-contributors-bounces at mail.dojotoolkit.org> 
>>>> [mailto:dojo-contributors-bounces at mail.dojotoolkit.org 
>>>> <mailto:dojo-contributors-bounces at mail.dojotoolkit.org>] On
>>>> Behalf Of Dylan Schiemann Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 6:04
>>>> AM To: dojo dev. Subject: Re: [dojo-contributors] what is the
>>>> raison detre for dojo 2.0.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Frankly, I don't care at all about competing with other
>>>> toolkits. I'm tired of hearing about how we can win the war.
>>>> Why are we at war, rather than working hard to grow with the
>>>> community at large?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Rather than focusing on building the one walled garden yet
>>>> completely open toolkit to rule them all, Dojo and the Dojo
>>>> Foundation should be thinking about how we can take our
>>>> knowledge and make both our toolkit and any others that share
>>>> our open ideals better.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> What I personally care about is creating a collection of tools
>>>> (a
>>>> 
>>>> toolkit) that continues to make it simpler to build well
>>>> architected and highly performant apps, and that is easy to
>>>> split up and scale up.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The focus needs to be on the APIs and tools and features that
>>>> we need to deliver on, and growing our community by becoming
>>>> part of the bigger community. We didn't start Dojo to win the
>>>> war, we started Dojo to change the web and make it more open
>>>> and collaborative.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> We need to focus on building an amazing foundation, pushing
>>>> things forward, and people will continue to notice. We've had a
>>>> lot more interest lately as people take another look at Dojo,
>>>> and interesting group of new people that have become involved,
>>>> or that want to see where
>>>> 
>>>> 2.0 goes to see how they can help.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One idea I've had involves sort of having the foundation be a
>>>> bit less about silo-ed projects, and more about areas of
>>>> interest that one or more projects can come together to
>>>> collaborate on.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> For example, this might look something like:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> * Utilities
>>>> 
>>>> * Modules
>>>> 
>>>> * Language improvements and shims
>>>> 
>>>> * UI (widgets, themes, mobile, effects, vector graphics, etc.
>>>> ... this one is probably too big)
>>>> 
>>>> * Data/MVC
>>>> 
>>>> * Server-side integration/REST/Real-time
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> with the idea being to encourage projects with overlap to more
>>>> easily collaborate across projects where it makes sense. People
>>>> could either be involved with projects, or just involved in an
>>>> area of interest, or both. It might make the foundation a more
>>>> inviting place to encourage collaboration, etc.? But more
>>>> importantly I think, it would encourage projects to perhaps
>>>> share some common APIs, so that each microtoolkit isn't
>>>> reinventing the wheel.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The goal for Dojo 2.0 should not be to try and take on the
>>>> weight of the world and do everything, but should be to provide
>>>> the right set of tools and community and vision so that our
>>>> users can do everything with Dojo as part of that story.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Until we have that, I don't care about the competition, because
>>>> it frankly doesn't matter and it's the wrong place to put the
>>>> attention of an open source project as we're trying to plan
>>>> towards 2.0.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Looking at the various suggestions, those from Colin, Rick
>>>> Waldron, & James Burke mesh most closely with what I think our
>>>> priorities should be for 2.x, as well as what I wrote of
>>>> course.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> -Dylan
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> on 10/10/12 8:39 PM (GMT-07:00) Rawld Gill said the following:
>>>> 
>>>>> Great point on packaging/distribution.
>>>> 
>>>>> I think the issue of *how* we release is yet another key view
>>>>> slice
>>>> through what we are trying to accomplish. We did discuss this a
>>>> little today, including the idea that one of our release
>>>> artifacts in the future could be a single-script, loaderless
>>>> package that could compete with the microlibs/jquery.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> --Rawld
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From:
>>>>>> dojo-contributors-bounces at mail.dojotoolkit.org
>>>> <mailto:dojo-contributors-bounces at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
>>>> [mailto:dojo- <mailto:dojo->
>>>> 
>>>>>> contributors-bounces at mail.dojotoolkit.org
>>>> <mailto:contributors-bounces at mail.dojotoolkit.org>] On Behalf
>>>> Of Adam L.
>>>> 
>>>>>> Peller Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 6:56 PM To: dojo
>>>>>> dev. Subject: Re: [dojo-contributors] what is the raison
>>>>>> detre for dojo 2.0. Sorry I missed the meeting. I don't
>>>>>> like the odds of predicting what the right areas are to
>>>>>> focus on.  My hope for Dojo 2.0 is that we can fix the 
>>>>>> packaging/distribution problem in a way that makes us more
>>>>>> flexible, so we don't get stuck with one release of one set
>>>>>> of plugins, or tie our future to decisions we make now.
>>>>>> Instead, we can have independent pieces with independent
>>>>>> release cycles, which can thrive or die, people can use
>>>>>> what they need, can do a major revision (3.0) when they
>>>>>> need to, work with other toolkits, etc. That's an 
>>>>>> oversimplification of a very difficult problem, but we're
>>>>>> in a much better position to do this now with AMD, github,
>>>>>> volo/cpm, etc., and
>>>> getting that right may matter more than what we initially
>>>> release for 2.0.
>>>> 
>>>>>> -Adam
>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________ 
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>>>> 
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>>>>
>>>>> 
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