[dojo-contributors] Forums for testing/comparison

[Tom Trenka]

You missed something.  The default layout on bbPress looks like this:

http://bbpress.org/forums/

Or, in a list:
login
tags
search
latest discussions
forums/topics

The one thing that it doesn't seem to support yet feature-wise is email
integration.

More below.

On 12/17/06, Karl Tiedt <ktiedt at gmail.com> wrote:

> As for the arguments that users will hold our forum support against Dojo
> because it isnt visually appealing... WTF does a free forum backend have to
> do with Dojo? Of course we'll spice it up a bit where/when we can with Dojo
> stuff, but honestly... are you gonna refuse to goto "Car Dealership A"
> because they have a used "Car Maker Brand X" car forsale and its not as high
> of quality as their new "Car Maker Brand Y" cars that they normally sell? Of
> course not, why; because its NOT their product. If anyone is stupid enough
> to hold phpBB or SMF or any which ever forums against the Dojo Toolkit or
> its developers, thats retarded and they/their employer needs to do a nice
> review of the value of that employee.
>
> Theres my $2 on that subject.


Anything that we, as the Dojo project, use in terms of software reflects the
project itself.  I really wish most of the contributors here would at least
acknowledge this at times; it seems like it goes over many people's heads.
Any software we choose to use ends up being something of an endorsement of
that product; and the choice itself is reflection on the attitude and
approach of the project overall--even if it's only one or two people who
made that decision.  So in the end, a free forum backend that Dojo uses
reflects on the project overall--as does any other software.  This is one of
the main reasons why I went to town about the build system in the widget
proposal I made.

Furthermore--and no offense to you--your analogy is accurate but your
conclusion is generally wrong.  People *do* care with the mix and match,
much more than you'd think--because most people don't take the time to make
the distinction between products, if they are located in the same spot.
What you also don't mention is that Car Dealerships (to use your analogy
here) who are concerned about their image will refuse to market certain
cars; for instance, it's pretty unlikely you're going to find used Hyundais
at a BMW dealership.  There's a reason for this--it's because they have an
image to uphold, and they are concerned enough about that image that there
are things they won't do.  And honestly, who knows what kind of emotional
reaction you're going to get with a customer; in this particular case, it's
very possible that someone walking onto a Saturn lot (for instance), to see
Hummers being sold, will not return to that dealer.

Which means you just called a large portion of our audience retarded, as
opposed to standing in their shoes and looking in at what we're offering.

I'm also trying to give you the benefit of my experience, both working with
major ad agencies and my own experiences dealing with the Dojo website.
"Gee, there is a template system" is fine if someone is willing to not only
rewrite the templates, but do it in a way that is coordinated with the guys
designing the website--and then hope that those guys are also willing to
take the time to make a forum design, that can be implemented quickly and
*will* be implemented quickly.  At least with the bbPress forums, they look
decent out of the box, and support most of the features asked for.

I'll leave you with a bunch of links, which I invite everyone on this list
who have not read them to try at least some of these essays out (and I
heartily suggest at least the first):

Don Norman, Emotion & Design: attractive things work better:
http://www.jnd.org/dn.mss/emotion_design.html
Don Norman, Design as Communication:
http://www.jnd.org/dn.mss/design_as_comun.html
Don Norman, Emotionally Centered Design:
http://www.jnd.org/dn.mss/emotionallycentered.html

Edward Tufte, at al: the Feynman-Tufte Principle:
http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0001kE&topic_id=1

Digital Web, Packaging Design for Web-based Products:
http://www.digital-web.com/articles/packaging_design_for_webbased_products/

Greg Storey, A Better Tighty Whitey:
http://www.airbagindustries.com/archives/005675.php
(regarding the idea that the design of the memo "Bin Laden Determined to
Attack US" hindered the understanding and importance of the memo and it's
contents)

Greg Storey, Commentary on the assertion that "non-designed sites" will be
more successful: http://www.airbagindustries.com/archives/009000.php

Jensen Harris: Quality is Usability:
http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/2006/01/17/513780.aspx

...all of these are links that I've assembled off the top of my head in
about 10 minutes or so.  There's plenty more information out there regarding
these topics, and I heartily suggest as much reading as possible--as opposed
to dismissing it out of hand.

---

I'll also say that the statements I'm making regarding forum choices and
design can be applied in some manner to both the visual aspects of Dojo (i.e.
the widget system) and the Dojo website overall; on a personal note I was
*not* happy with the design I came up with for the current site (the one
that launched with Dojo 0.3), and I've no problem admitting that (though I
thought the sun badge kind of worked with the clouds).

trt
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